Monday, July 16, 2007

Are there explanations?

The morning after. A terrible feeling. My shift starts at 3 PM (1 hour and 20 minutes from now). Everyone will be waiting for me to tease me until they run out of voice.

I couldn't write anything last night because I was running with 2 hours of sleep from the day before and just after the U20 win over Mexico I feel asleep and woke up 12 or 13 hours later.

I've seen you've been posting a lot and that's a good thing to see. I've got plenty to read.

But right now, I wanted to see if we can find explanations, reasons for this to have happened yet again...

I'll try...

1. It is easier (there is no denying) to play defensive, especulative, negative tactics than to try to create and play beautiful.

2. It was always a matter of who scored the first goal. No doubt the first team to score was bound to win. If it was Argentina, then Brazil would have been forced to attack and leave spaces at the back. It wasn't, we'll never know, but it really helps me to think that way.

3. Argentina's way of playing, really suited this Brazilian team.

4. Brazil's way of playing is the worst possible a team like Argentina can face.

I wouldn't want you to think these are all excuses, because I think what I'm trying to do is look for explanations. Trying to decode the game.

My first thoughts are:

BASILE should stay.

There must be a way to be able to play beautiful and win trophies. The way this national team gave us joy and made us look forward for the next game is second to none and I think that should continue.

It is not by changing EVERYTHING we have that we will win in the future. There are no guarantees of that. And there are no guarantees that a team which plays beautiful, offensive, attractive football will never win.

It is a matter of improving the only aspect of our game that failed from game one: defense.

We've got 3 years to go for the World Cup and we should build on a lot of what we did right in this Copa America.

There are players who had the chance to retire in style from international football, with a trophy in their hands, but it wasn't meant to be.

We'll talk about them in future I'm only one hour away from the start of my shift and I have to prepare and get to work, even though I wasn't born prepared for this very sad day...


johnny said...

Good luck today Seba ! I agree with your sentiments about the loss. Rash decisions won't help anything. Changing the way we play is easier said than done as well. This IS the way Argentinos play football ! You might as well tell a fish that soon he will be expected to get out of the water and starting walking on land. All that said, personnel revisions will definitely be in order. Not wholesale changes, but more than tweaking also. Young tough guys like Banega will get a look. Guys who are more in the Mascherano mold. There certainly is no shortage of young players to look at as the U20 team's success shows. Other players can step up. Unfortunately, Brazil proved that point yesterday. Saludos !

Roy said...

I'm gonna quote Mascherano from the post-game versus Germany from the World Cup.

"We tried to play and represent the country as well as we could. I’ve got nothing to say because if you watch the game you’ll see that we were the better team. We showed we’re up there with the best teams in the world, and in my opinion there’s no such a thing as justice in football."

Mascherano could say the exact same thing right now concerning the Brazil match and it will still hold true. If you watch the match, we were the better team. We atleastr tried to use tactics. Brazil's tactic was to counter-attack.

With all that said, I expect a few changes in the team. My guess is Veron is gone and replaced by Gago, Pato... I'm not sure how much longer he'll be in the posts for us. Aimar should be in the starting line-up. And for the love of GOD do something with Cambiasso.

gonzo said...

i'm over it already, and i have chewed out at least 4 brazilians today. i told them a Zapata like declaration; id rather lose with style, than win playing drab football. putting 10 on defense and then doing counterattacks is the way you get on my blacklist. in any case the longball and creative midfielder is dead.

Soyderiver said...

I have a few things to mention.

1. Brazil while using ugly tactics had a gameplan. Foul before we could get into the attacking third and force crosses to the woefully short fron line. it worked to perfection.

2. Hit the woefully slow midfield and defense with blitkrieg type attacks. again worked to perfection.

3. Our game plan? counter thier speed with slow, ball control midfield players. It failed miserably.

In my opinion part of the problem was veron and riquelme. I agree with Bielsa's idea that they both play basically the same position and bring many of the same qualities. A team doesnt need two playmakers so i think veron should not have played unless he was subing for riquelme.

as for riquelme, i was right. He is slow and can not deal with a physical game. That being said, he was great for us and I was wrong to be against him being on our team. My apologies Roman!

so what do we do in the future?
1. Defense needs replaced. All of them. zanetti did well but I dont think he will be available for 2010.

2. Midfield with the exception of Maxi and javier needs to be replaced. Again I dont think Riquelme will play in 2010.

3. Forwards are fine. I would however like a target man type for when we are forced to play physical. I would like to see Maxi Lopez back in the fold. He's tall and strong. A perfect target guy that will occupy the opposing d and leaving the other players some room to operate.

As Rio mentioned several times we need to be flexible in out style of play. We do not adapt well on the field. So far the game plan to defeat us has been set in stone. Foul often and challenge every pass. We need to find a way to counter this or its going to be a long time before we taste WC glory again.

wmkeri said...

yes! soyderiver! i agree with you! we should be more flexible with our gameplan and whenever it's needed to change our tactics. I remember the game against Germany in the last World Cup they also played like Brazil last night, and the brazilian sticked to their tactics so well that we cannot go near the penalty area. Yeah! we really missed Crespo! Crespo is a target man! with tevez up front, there's only a fragile chance to winning a header against Juan and Alex. One worth mentioning is that, they know that Alex is a slow poke, and Messi is inferiorly too fast for him, that's why they have to stop our attack in the midfield! yeah! the same tactic used by the Germans!

In addition i think, we need to defend better during counter attacks and need to figure out how to cope to teams with pacey wingers such as Dani Alves.

But at least, the U20 team is doing really well. I love the way they defended in their last match against Mexico! This time they really have showed their seniors how to defend correctly! they're undoubtly are great prospects but for the 2010 World Cup, we need a better and taller striker! I guess, we need another Batistuta.


Jamie said...

Damn, feel for you guys. I thought Argentina should have won the World Cup too.

But that Copa America outcome was a goddamned Greek tragedy.

Rio said...

have a look what brazilians are saying:

Some are so sore after this lesson Brasil taught Argentina (again) and are allowing emotions to control the thought process. "Victory for negative football." Please, this was a victory for a championship team who's leader is a champion and who's B-team now has demonstrated the heart of a champ. Brasil has always been much better than the Argies and this is just another reflection of that. C'mon Argentina can't even beat a B-team Brasil and some want us to think it's negative. Yeah, okay.. Grow up Argies and move on, 2nd best is your rightful place in S. America so accept that. Enough with the envy, it's pathetic.

Rio said...

basile understands Zubeldia's system. But that's as far as he went.

Bilardo is the true protege of Zubeldia. And he was kept down because AFA is a mafia!

when pekerman resigned Bilardo clearly stated he wanted to coach, and again was shut down by AFA. Job given to Basile...

you can mimic as much as you want, but the true essence of the Zubeldia school of thoughts is NOT within the 4-3-1-2 formation. It's about flexibility, practicality, adaptability.

Bilardo played practical football in his NT years, just like his master did in Argentine league! Not blinding following 1 doctrine to death!

It's a hard taught lesson, but the answer is there now. So stop with this argument of keeping basile. It's simply ignorance.

soyderiver said...

I think the changes should go like this.

Grondona should be fired and replaced by Pekerman.

Basile should be replaced by (this hurts me so bad to say this)Carlos Bianchi.

gonzo said...

grondona replaced by pekerman... put down the bong soyderiver, oh and that palacio rumor of him going to arsenal is a hoax.

Rio said...

you can't replace grondona. he's the godfather man

Rio said...

any change would be a different front man from the same mafia family. for example bilardo, or in the far future simeone.
in this case bilardo is probably a good choice eventhou there's alot of things about him I don't like. because at least he's influenced by zubeldia, not like Grondona's son who's just a mafia prince.

ppl like pekerman and menotti might be good coaches but they do not have the political status or the charisma to challenge the mafia. Nor would people trust them over the mafia to run things.

raul gomez for example, is an independent party, not a puppet of grondona. But it'll be a long time before they can really become contenders even thought they have a limited resources of power.

Rio said...

Carlos Bianchi does not have a notable establishment in south american football anymore.

John said...


You are not alone in this matter. The fact that I have a few people waiting for my arrival today at work makes me wondering how on earth am I going to tolerate with this people?

In the end there is nothing to be ashamed of as it all about football. Sometimes you love it and sometimes you hate it. But that what makes football such a beautiful game.

I’m sure at this present moment there must be a lot going on in our heads but let’s me not rush into things first.

Other Sports

FIBA Under-19 World Championship

Argentina continued their FIBA U19 World Championship revival with a 68-59 win over Turkey in the eighth-finals on Monday.

Coming in on the back of their 112-72 demolition of Puerto Rico, the South Americans rarely looked like replicating Saturday's bursts of prolific scoring, but they did enough to claim their third win from four games.

Nicolas Aguirre did the bulk of the damage, pouring in 14 points and pulling down 11 rebounds, while Diego Gerbaudo and Sebastian Uranga both netted 11 points.

Dogus Balbay claimed 14 points in response, with eight rebounds, but other than the 13 points of Can Oezcan he lacked scoring support.

It was a disappointing result for Turkey, who have now lost two of their four games, and all the more frustrating considering they led for much of the match.

After the first quarter they sat 18-17 ahead, at half-time they led 36-31 and with just the final quarter to play they set the pace at 51-45.

Then, with four minutes and 22 seconds to play, Turkish indiscipline kicked in and eight free-throws allowed Argentina to steal the honours.

Anonymous said...

You think Gago7Masche will on the pitch together? I knew not winning the copa america will be a disaster for us. Just a lot of soul searching. You know after last years WC, I stopped watching football till DEC or so, I think that will happen again. Not reason to be happy about this game.


John said...

Our defense was shaky from the first match against the USA. I guess probably because the fact that we were superior in attack (until the final that is) it was important element that COCO has not done his homework.

After all in any team strategy it should always be from defense to offence.

This has been very painful for me to say but the fact is we never look like threatening Brazil except for the one or two chances we had.

In the end I’m not going to blame anyone for this defeat as when you play as team its either you win or loose as a team.

But then again, I’m having a REAL tough time to munch all this and not too sure for how long this I’m going to get over this whole thing. Sometimes I’d wish I just woke up from a nightmare. I do, really.

Anand said...

Hmm…looks like I am finally getting back to my normal self after a terrible day. Saw the parts of the match which I just refused to see and switched the tube off. Saw the post match ceremony where the now familiar sight of a heart broken bunch of figures looking around, lying down, not able to figure out what the hell has gone wrong or pondering on how cursed they are. It is now become officially branded as a statement in the eyes of the media that Argentina is a team of chokers. Be as it may I do not think any of my dear brothers and sisters in this community would ever hate this team. You know why? We are all a bunch of hard core romantics who choose to see things the way others won’t, who chose to accept a path which is difficult for others to take. As a youngster, I first saw team Argentina in action in the 90 world cup, where an unfashionable team took themselves to an undeserving final match led by a short man called Diego. I was not old enough to understand the quality of football I would eventually like, but my mom told me that the man had achieved things others could never imagine and thus he is special. It is not so much of surprise to me now that people with whom I share an ideological viewpoint and emotional comfort, all choose to love that man and the team he played for. I cried when he went down. I did not watch football or world cups so seriously till the last one again in my life. But if anybody asked me what football all about is, I could only say Argentina. I got mesmerized again by the display of brilliance again in the last Worldcup and I realized and felt so glad that it wasn’t mediocrity that I have so far been cheering for as a blind supporter. Then the heartbreaks, I started searching for consolations and justifications for myself for the seemingly illogical and unfair state of affairs with my beloved team and players. And here is few words that I can think of :

Vincent Van Gogh was a phenomenal talent who did not achieve anything through out his lifetime. It was after his death that the true value of his work has been recognized by the world. Every artist crave for the spark and minds eye that Van Gogh created in his paintings, and very few could proudly claim to be as liberated a mind as Van Gogh.

Andy Warhole, on the other hand achieved phenomenal success and recognition for his works and has influenced the way advertising and graphic art took its turn at the turn of 20th century. Yet, even Warhole would not dare to stand on the same pedestal with van Gogh because even his best efforts are mediocre in comparison to the work of a super genius.

Friends, we can cry for foreign coaches who might bring back silverware to Argentina, but if it is resorted to plane mediocre approach and systems I am sure none of us will be able to hold our heads high with any such achievements. There will be a time when there is a realization of what is being lost, much stronger than what we feel now, and those will be the times when we will cherish the moments of brilliance this bunch of “chokers” have displayed on the pitch before the finals.

So….Joga Bonito….Argentina……..

allan ng said...

I just want to thank Seba and John for maintaining this website so we can commiserate with each other at times like this.

I think it is time everybody, especially the coach and players, take a well-earned summer break.

As for the future of the national team, leave the AFA to do whatever they decide to do.

I still believe in the Argentine national team and I think maybe it is just as well we lose now and not in South Africa 2010. I believe we will learn this hard lesson and come back with a better team.

Anonymous said...

Hey Seba
I Came from Thailand .And most of us are the England & Brazil supporter .I"m the only one in my department to be the Argentine"s supporter .Yesterday was the very terrible day for me too.Luckily The U20 made the win . Think in a posiitve way .This was the great chance to rebulid our squad , our strategy ,and to be better in the upcoming competition .I"m sure our side will have shining day as well

Niraj said...

Its just too hard to bite the defeat again and again and again.But I just cant stop loving this team and I think will never be too.But we need to work if we are to win the WC in 2007 and work really hard especially in defense and please we need another keeper from now on.And please guys No shouting on Roman.He was the best player from our team.The brazilians said that they won because they restrained roman and yet he had the best chances for the team but there really doesnt seem to be justice in football with his first shot beating the keeper but hitting the woodwork.Veron and Cambiasso did absolutely nothing and thats why Riquelme alone could do nothing much in the mid.Tevez and messi got almost no chance to hit.Our Defence was just disastraous and we need really to improve in that.
And we really need a leader who can motivate us in the field.
BUT IT IS BETTER TO LOOSE PLAYING THE GAME WE PLAYED THEN TO WIN LIKE THE BRAZILIANS...37 fouls won them the finals and it cant be more sickening to see ROBINHO take the player of the tournament...

John said...

Hey Guys, let the Brazilians have they say in whatever fashion they like. All we can do for now is pray and hope for a better future. But then again this is not something new as we had talk about it over and over again.

After all this is our team and whoever has the right to criticize it has to be us because we LOVE it like no one else does.

In the end for me I’m grateful enough to have all of you around so that it doesn’t make my world so sorrowful like what other people perceive it to be.

I guess all this is just anger that I have for our boys for not being able to understand how much victory the other day would have mean a lot to us.

By the way Seba, how are things going on at your end? Just remember the rest of us are here for you.

alwin said...

Tonymed..the same shit goes on in MALAYSIA also..i meade a point in an earlier comment that we are not mentally prepared as BRAZIL and ENGLAND when we face them. No matter what style of game they play they always seem to topple us..which is very sickening. I don't think we lack the skills and the "BEAUTIFUL GAME" we are full of it...but we lack the true grit and character to win battles against our greatest rivals.....I can't seem to find a logic too, its all up in the head....

Saurabh Bhattacharjee said...

I do not think wholesale change is necessary based on this defeat nor a change in playing style.

After recovering (if only slightly)the sheer shock and the feeling of helplessness of yesterday, I can say that we need to identify the weak points and work on them instead of panic stricken changes.

The defence personnel anyway had to change. I do think people like Burdisso and Diaz need to be given more chances and responsibility. And like all others, I ardently hope that G. Rodriguez gets fit soon.

We also need to work on the defensive midfield. Veron and Riquelme are too similar and cannot play together. Basile needs to try out playing Gago and Mascherano together, especially against physically dominant team. I felt that along with poor defence, it was in leaving Mascherano alone that we lost the game. I know that both Mascherano and Gago like playing as the lone no.5 but we need a solid base from which our attack can weave its patterns and moves.

I do not think we need to change our attacking approach. A good attack can co-exist with a good defence. In fact, a strong defence gives more confidence to the attackers.

As far as Bilardo is concerned, I was too young to really evaluate his contribution. But when one checks up the past results (which apparently is the most definitve index according to his philosophy) other than the Two World Cups (which I agree most Coaches will die to have), he did not achieve much either. At least, he was not consistently succesful.

AFA as an organisation is completely alien to me, but it does seems strange that ever since I have been following football, Grondona has been the boss. Apparently, accountability is only for the players and coaches.

Rio said...

you people live in a fairyland.

let me tell you something you might not have known about AFA.

Grondano already said he's probably going to serve his 8th mandate.

He's been the president of AFA since 1979. That's 28 years.

During the 28 years, he had seen 4 de facto presidents and 7 democratic presidents gone by.

79 deaths from football violence and he's still in the office.

the godfather of AFA mafia has survived more than 40 cases of doping, 3 referee strikes, 8 player strikes and 50 legal raids.

and he's still there.

I know you people from asia know about corruption. Not just in football federations, I meant in the entire government.
Now, do they pick officials base on their management abilities?

AFA is just as corrupted as those governments. Will they pick coaches based on their tactical abilities?

andaman said...

...We are all a bunch of hard core romantics who choose to see things the way others won’t, who chose to accept a path which is difficult for others to take.

anand, you said it, bro! That's why we love this team so much no matter how many times the guys let us down at the most crucial moment. A Bunch of hopeless romantics we are that must look funny and pathetic in the eyes of people who can't make heads or tails of it (eg. my friend who support Brazil. Love that her team won but hate the way they played told me Argentina will never win anything in another 15 years if they still play like this. Well I answered her similar to what Zapata said in gonzo's comment.)

In how many news these past days that say Brazil won convincingly but one would rather see the beautiful passing football display by Argentina any day because this IS what football is all about. I can watch all of Argentina's goals in this tournaments (and others especially that fantastic 26 passes gol) over and over again with enjoyment. Actually I did. They are all gems. And sometimes the most beautiful of gems need other elements to help make it the crown jewel.

Blabber on like a true romantics. I still believe in los albicelestes so VAMOS ARGENTINA!

**Hope the day weren't too hard for you Seba. You're not alone bro!

alwin said...

do you guys believe in soccer betting and results being fixed..i don't intend to throw the spanner into the works..but, i just that this shitty feeling some other force has been tampering with results..Moreover, ARGENTINA were the favourites for the crown and could have raked in alot of bets, hence betting being a business and the bookies would not want to loose out...just a thought guys

pablo said...

what can i say that hasent been said before.
me im destrort its not fair at all and of course my brazilian "friends" eagley awaited my arrival yesterday just to cap it off a realy shitty day so no escape for me.
obersavions:ive said before that the game today is played at pace,very speedy wingers,that we did not enyone at all surprised veron and camb did not work?our defence is to slow and that was ovious from game one but worse is the relience we have on a playmaker.if he has a bad game then we never seem to have a game plan b example w.c vs germany and vs brazil when req was marked out of the game the players had no idea what to not blaiming the players bacause im sure if ever the chance to wear the blue and white came up none of us would ever say no,it has to rest on the coach.he picks them,decides on tactics,subs etc etc autho he canot make them play the blaime has to rest on him 1st and the players 2nd..wake me up in a month when this nightmere is over,i thank you.

John said...

I’m not sure why but I guess is whenever I refresh our blog and read through some latest comments from you guys I just feel like writing something. Well at least it allows me to swallow my infinite sadness and feel a bit better then before.

Andaman, great to you back bro. Well I’m sure right know you will be surrounded by more sorrowful people, as I believe the whole Thailand must be down after crashing out of the Asian Cup, despite having a spectacular start and playing some beautiful football as well.

Pablo, I know it is easy to pick on the coach when a team doesn't do well but didn’t we all were behind him prior to this game. I believe he has done a great job and I hope this match will serve a great lesson for him.

What I’m saying is without a doubt hurting me the most but it’s better now than later.


Saurabh Bhattacharjee said...

I am a bit puzzled by this theory of playmakers being antiquated in modern football. Yes, it is true that Riquelme was marked out of the game. But at what cost? He earned a series of free kicks. If only we had a tall centre forward to make use of those. How many free kicks did we see which just floated harmlessly over the box to be headed by the Alex and Co.

Of course, Riquelme with his lack of pace and not much off the ball running makes it easier to mark.

Anonymous said...

Ayala is gone.

Rio said...

there are formations that allow 2 playmakers. 3-5-2 for example.

it's not just the playmaker problem. our entire strategy was fixed in and not flexible.

Brazil did the same thing and went 20 years without titles after pele. then they started taking things more seriously and more practically, and look at them now.

enough said. if people still don't realize what's going on and wanted the same attacking system to continue, they're just not argentine fans. rather fans of these extraordinary individuals Argentina had produced.

Roy said...

I think that own goal and the Copa America all together really did it for him. The guy was planning to finish his international career on top. Sadly, that didn't happen. Thanks for everything Ayala! I'll be watching you with Aimar and Milito.

Anonymous said...

Ayala says he was always going to retire (though it would have been nicer for him to retire on a high note). The guys overall was a tremendous player for us and I hope that he is remembered for all those contributions. It will nice to see him at Zaragoza.

I have to say that I echo the sentiment that a lot of the "romantics" and say that I hope we maintain our short passing game. Maybe Brasil's way is more effecient but if our games start to consist of lots of defending, quick counter-attacks and massive amounts of tactical fouls I might have to find a new sport to follow. I would rather we play with finesse than with power. We shouldn't hit the panic button yet.

Honestly I think that we can make our attacking system work. Our problems in this case were that our defense was never really solid and we didn't have any true wings which meant that our fullbacks had to compensate leaving our backline vulnerable. We also needed a tall number 9 (Messi and Tevez trying to beat Alex to a header was a little depressing). These are all fixeable problems though and we don't have to win at all costs but rather win in style, which is much more satisfying.

Seba, John, Gonzo and everyone else who had to deal with Brazil fans I hope today was better. We should all keep hope. There is always the Olympics (not a senior title I know but it would nice if we defend our gold, particularly since Brazil has never won one hehe) and the Confederations Cup. We also have a new generation of players for the WC in 2010...


Rio said...

read some comments from people that really understand the argentine styles...

failed state:

Argentina is most comfortable when they possess the ball, it's part of our tango win or lose. In the upcoming years relying on Riquelme may not be a factor.

Since the win in 78 Argentina is caught between two styles of futbol, one created by Menotti and the other by Bilardo. The one common thing about both winning teams, was the defensive players. Both teams tenian carniceros "butchers", but only one team had a true enganche and that was Maradona.

Basile in 91 and 93 never had a true enganche, Gorosito was probably the closest to that role, but the defense which included Simeone and Ruggeri were the focal points of those teams. For the 94 WC Basile after suffering difficulty in la eliminatorias rebuilt the team around Maradona, after Maradona was out of the picture the team fell apart along with the tactics.

Roberto Ayala as Argentina's most capped player has reached his final game he will have to shoulder much of the responsibility for this latest lost against Brazil since two of his mistakes resulted in 2 goals being scored.

Trying to overcome Brazil from 2 goals is a near impossible feat especially when the second came in the final minutes of the first half. All Brazil had to do was make tactical foul after tactical foul for at least the first 20 minutes of the 2nd half. I don't see any other club or national team at this present moment coming back from 2 goals against them.

There's a reason why Riquelme had left the team after WC 06, the criticism comes ten fold on the guy. Argentina were playing without him in a set of friendlies. Happened to be that Roman was playing beautiful football with Boca, that the timing seemed perfect.

My main problems were with Veron and Heinze, Bielsa liked Veron instead of Riquelme and couldn't have them playing together. Basile decides to have them both on the field. Pekerman doesn't like having a Heinze as a LWB when he's got someone faster like Sorin that can even cross better, so he uses him as CB as Sir Alex Ferguson has sometimes done, only to sometimes have drastic results. Instead of Veron we've got players like Maxi Rodriguez or even D'Alessandro to play the midfield with a quick pass release, Maxi even has the inate ability of performing as a striker when the chance presents itself. The role currently being held by Veron is for someone else, his time has passed.

I would like to see Zanetti still play on the team, his experience is invaluable and defensively he is still sound despite his age, instead of having him on the right I would shift him towards the left, bring Heinze back into the CB, and have a young player like Zabaleta play on the right.

-----Maxi Rodriguez--------------Cambiasso-------------
-----------------------Crespo( or Milito)---------------------------

No true enganche is being used, Both Tevez and Messi act as withdrawn strikers, playing on the midfield. Cambiasso may still taking a defensive approach when necessary. Both Zanetti and Zabaleta are wingbacks that may attack when necessary, both have the capability. Milito and Heinze as anchors along with Macherano.

Argentina keeps its attacking style, possesion of the ball would remain, this formation would probably suit well againt an upcoming opponent, wouldn't hurt to see something like this in effect.

wmkeri said...

we can do without cambiasso. D'Allessandro should play. Maybe, when facing hard tackling teams, we sould use D'Allessandro rather than Roman. I enjoy watching him play. I think, he is one of the candidates to play in 2010.

Our offense is strong, but the problems is the defence. There's not enough support from the midfielders when they defense. We can take Barcelona and Man Utd as examples, they play attacking football, but at the same time they can also defend properly. Man Utd won the Premiership last season. Barca had won 2 consecutive Primera Liga in 3 years!

see! there's still hope for offensive football! Who's with me ?!

But FIFA should make a new regulation that avoiding the same player making the same defensive fouls, it's really unfair! Other sports have it, why not in Football!

Anonymous said...

It's an interesting formation and one that would utilize Messi well but I'm not sure if Crespo and Zanetti are making it to 2010. I do agree though that Heinze never was a LWB and that he would be better used in the middle. Maxi (or even Ledesma or Belluschi) would have been great to have in the final as well.

However, I think that you don't quite understand what people are saying when you accuse us of not understanding Argentina's way of playing. I don't think anyone is arguing that we did everything right in the final and that we shouldn't change anything at all (most people are proposing some type of change). What we are all saying is that we don't want to play like Brazil did. We don't want to play like the European teams either hoofing the ball up the field in a counter attack and bunkering down for the rest of the game.

It might be that we don't use an enganche or we start to use two or whatever lineup. What people want is to maintain the essence of the Argentinian game. Ball possession, short passes, always attacking etc. That is how we want to win, not in the way Brazil played (not to take away from their win). Just because Brazil decided to do away with the passing midfielder doesn't mean we have to.


johnny said...

I'm with you Wmkeri !

David N said...

I'm gutted that Argentina lost the final too, but all this soul-searching seems slightly like a massive over-reaction.

In the final, Brazil mugged Argentina. Simple as that. They got their tactics right, they got all of the luck, they were plainly up for it, and it all went right. Meanwhile Argentina didn't really show up, yet they still dominated possession, had more chances, played better football. It all went wrong. Thats football, no? The best team doesn't always win.

Argentina should remain Argentina. Tinker with tactics, try new players, sure, but retain that spirit for beautiful football. Brazil may have won the tournament, but this Argentina team will be remembered fondly for the football it played long after this Brazil team is forgotten.

wmkeri said...

one more thing, i don't think Veron was also a playmaker. He's a distributor, more like Ever Banega in the U20 squad, or Fernando Gago in Real Madrid... in football there is only one playmaker in a team (if that team using a playmaker, there're a lot of teams that doesn't use playmakers, because finding a player that can be one is hard). Roman is the playmaker, Veron is a normal midfielder with a great ability to distribute. Even Roman plays together with Banega in Boca. So from my point of view, Basile is not using 2 playmakers, instead he was using 1 genius playmaker and 1 great distributor of the ball. Roman created the play and dictated the tempo, that is playmaking. in simple words he's the general in midfield.

johnny said...

And now for something completely different ! Did anyone see the elbow M. Palermo threw in the match last night in Phoenix ? During corners he was being molested all night, finally got weary of it and absolutely laid a guy out. Hard to blame him after zero calls all game. The ref could have given a penalty kick on every corner kick Boca tried. Now, that might not interest many people, but I'm over the depressing post mortem. Let's talk football, not losing.

Anonymous said...

Thank for the great defence you"ve played,Ayala.Have a luck in Zaragoza .I"ll continue to cheer you playing with your team there.

Anonymous said...

Good luck Captain Ayala.I"ll continue to cheer you making great game with Aimar.


Rio said...


for example, in 3-5-2, you can have 2 playmakers...

there are also ways of not using playmakers. rather use wing runs, man releases in the middle, or use holding midfielders to initiate attacks.

Pirlo's deep-lying playmaker position for example...

allan ng said...

I also want to see D'Alessandro instead of Cambiasso in Rio's line up.

Rio said...

that's not my lineup. it's posted by Failed State.

allan ng said...

Sorry Rio.

Hey Seba, Argentina's U-17 team are also playing in the Pan American Games at Rio de Janeiro currently. You got any news about them?

John said...

Other News…..

2007 FIBA Under-19 World Championship, Novi Sad, Serbia

Argentina continued their FIBA U19 World Championship revival with a 68-59 win over Turkey in the eighth-finals on Monday.

Nicolas AGUIRRE did the bulk of the damage, pouring in 14 points and pulling down 11 rebounds, while Diego GERBAUDO and Sebastian URANGA both netted 11 points.

But the revival was short lives as they were defeated 78-79 by Australia

Nicolas AGUIRRE was the main threat in this period with 12 points, and he finished top-scorer with 16 overall.

2007 Pan American Games

In the field hockey event, a double trashing over the host nation

Men’s Event

Argentina 19 Brazil 0

Ladies Event

Argentina 21 Brazil 0

As of now Argentina are currently in standing in 8th position with 3 gold, 1 silver & 7 bronze in the medal standing

Rio said...

U-17 lineup

Enrique Rodriguez FC said...

Im a venezuelan and i was right there in Maracaibo. It was 11:45pm on sunday after the disaster when I came out of my hotel room and found PATO in the hall waiting for the elevator (the team was ready to leave the country). His kid came out running and his wife was there too. After asking him for an authograph I was so nervous that all I could say was " Meen... como estan? como se han sentido?..."

His answer really made me feel a lot better (i was kind of devastated for that horrible dream)

He was sosegago and with a lot of peace of heart he said "bien... bien... no paso nada"...

For me was a perspective that it is just a game is more what we suffer as fans than what really is up to stake. It was fun. It was a great performance of argentina during the whole cup.

The first to make a mistake in elite futbol is the one to take the weight of the rest of the game.

It was a supper copa america for all of us that had the chance to see your players give it all out.

We had great fun celebrating 16 goals of argentina and 5 of our vino tinto.

the first to make the mistake was going to take the heat.

just to let your wonder:
what where doing 4 samba drumer teams, one on each corner of the stadium...? something tell me there was another player in the field... to many mistakes where made on that first half. Almost 3 self goals and a one great GOLAZO de Ayala.

Notice that this samba drummers where not even looking at the game, they where just jammin like hell not stop during the whole time of the game. I was there I saw them.

Well As pato told me "no paso nada"

Have fun, I know is different for you.


Rio said...

can't blame pato for the first 2 goals.

only the 3rd goal was really savable. he positioned too much towards starboard and left too much room on other side.