In what was perhaps the last proper test against a proper rival before the World Cup, Argentina defeated Germany 1-0 in Munich and the Mundo Albiceleste team got together the morning after for another edition of our podcast show.
John, Roy and Seba discuss the most important aspects of the game and trigger a debate. Based on what we saw in Uruguay in the last round of the World Cup Qualifier and our showing against Germany last night the question is up in the air:
Will Argentina play defensively from now on?
As a matter of fact, we've got more than one question floating in the air and Mundo Albiceleste team tries to answer some of them and struggles to do so with others.
Maybe you can give it a listen and join in the debate.
To download the Podcast, click here.
Thursday, March 04, 2010
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34 comments:
Nice work fellas ! Beautiful futbol or not beautiful futbol, that is the question. And John, behave yourself !
Another Great podcast, so impressed of it Thanks John,Roy,Seba..!
Ha ha..Send Schiavi and Palermo to Amazon for one holiday in june..vamos Argentina.
Sorry I mean send Schiavi and Palermo for one month holiday in june.
Was great to hear the podcast and your thoughts on the game.
I want to discuss the issue about the team's playing style. I strongly believe that the team should play a style of football that brings with it results. I have been watching Argentina play since 94 and the team always played a beautiful and attractive style of play. However, we didn't manage to win anything whether world cup or copa america and thats a major disappointment for our team not to win anything since 93 copa america.
Therefore, I totally agree with you Roy. The beautiful style of play hasnt given any results. I know some might say that its due to other factors aswell, but you cant deny that the game has become physical and defensive, especially at wc. For example, France and Italy reached the final in 2006 because they were solid defensively with no flair. I am not saying we should play like them because we have much better attacking players than them, but what I am saying is that defense and physical strength should be an important part of our game.
The team should play a style that is ruthless, physical, strong and organized defensively, very fast on the counter attack and play most of the game in the opposition's half like against Germany. If the team plays like this, we will win the world cup. I loved the way we played in 2006, but always thought that some things were missing such as quick counter attacking and physical strength like teams such as Germany, France and Brazil.
Also the reason why Argentina always wins the youth tournaments is because we are so much skillful than other teams at that level. However the senior sides are not matching the results that are achieved at youth level. Therefore, we know Argentinian players are with Brazil the most skillful in the world but the team needs to improve in other ways as mentioned.
Please feel free to give your thoughts on this topic, thanks.
Pertinent observation John!
Seba>
I think you should read the new article from j.p. varsky on canchallena, great stuff.
but we were complaining that Maradona has already tried 100 players already.It's time to determine the best squad and maybe change 1 or 2 players max
but we were complaining that Maradona has already tried 100 players already.It's time to determine the best squad and maybe change 1 or 2 players max
its funny how people an media in ARG having a go at messi,.(its exactly the same senario when roman was in charge of a team 4 years ago)but why when roman was our 10 evreone was saying we must let messi be our new 10,roman must go,and now every one is missing riquelmes magic.
roman plz come back,not just for the sake of albiceleste,but for sake of messi,s talent as well (which seems to be wasted by maradona).
if u want messi to be our stand out player (like seba sai on da pod)riquelme is da key for messi to succced in seleccion full stop, we tried (aimar,veron)but never really worked out convincingly there is also pastore i have high hopes for him,i was disapointed that i didnt c him against germany but is just a potential.
since messi been playing for arg he never had a better partener than riquelme,(just watch the games when he played wid roman)he was always our stand out player.
in wc messi an di maria will get foul alot,in my eyes nobody better to take this set pices than riquelme.thats an other huge plus.
remember in wc06 we scored 3 goals from set pices they were all very important.
I request a word filter for Riquelme.
Anonymous, I don't know where you're from, but in case you don't watch argentine football, then please do. Watch the next Boca match and understand once and forever the horrible condition in which R*quelme is. If you're a die hard Boca fan, then that would explain it, though I know many die hard Boca fans that are already tired of Román.
First i totally agree with you Sam. I mentioned before after the Germany game that its much more important to have a defence than a good off. I watched the Germany game last night and I thought that was our best game under Diego. We defended with alot of players but we attacked with alot aswell.
I disagree with some when it comes to Veron i thought he had a fine game. Made a couple of great passes and controlled the midfield. I personally rate him higher then Banega, aimar and todays riquelme.
And let me remind you all that Veron was voted south americas best players las year. My only concern is will he have the stamina and physic to last an entire world cup?
One must always keep in mind that Spain are the only National team playing beatiful football today. And thats because they have had the same players playing alot of games togther.
Brazil for instance are more on the defence than us. When they face us in the WCQ and won, it was like Germany facing malta or something like that. Even a couple of my friends (brazilian fans), got a little embaressed. Of course I got a lot of stick when Argentina lost. But my reply was, where is that samba football of yours. Are you that afraid of Argentina.
Brazil today play a defensive game, but they do counterattack vary good.
To Salvio suporter, I watched Boca most of the time and Riquelme still way way better than veron..! you watch last week game boca vs velez..3 killer assist all came from Riquelme, He is still really good his dribbling, play making style, no one you can compare with, I tell you what..if not beacuse of Riquelme Palermo will not have score so many goal as now, you how unskillfull is Palermo, so you have to give all the credit to Riquelme.
I watch Boca every match. Riquelme is in better form now that at this time a year ago. Nice assists and more dangerous lately as well. Sometimes it is tough to tell how good he is at the moment because Boca has let so much talent go over the past year. Now, it's Roman, Palermo and Gaitan, and that's about it.
I don't know who the better player is right now-Roman or Veron ? I would like to see Roman with the talent around him that Veron has at the moment.
All that said, I would rather see Aimar or Banega start for the NT rather than Veron or Riquelme. Time to move ON. AND, if Diego wants to go defensive and focus on counterattacking, who better than Banega ? He is very good defensively and could fit in a counter well.
I think our mid field/strikers should be like this for the world cup.
Masch. Cambiasso.
Messi. Di Maria
Hig.
Milito.
Oops the spacing didn't work out right. I'll have to redo it at home.
......................masch...............cambiasso...................
.......messi...............................................di maria.......
..........................higuain.................................................
..................................................milto................................
Sorry, but I resist to think Riquelme is playing as good as you would expect from him. He may have had a good game against Velez, but that's it. The guy does not run anymore, sometimes he disappears completely, a whole half. I don't really know why you say his dribbling is good. I haven't seen him dribble in years (exaggerating, obviously). You may have a point with Palermo's lack of skills, but Boca isn't just Riquelme. Alves is not one of those famous coaches that come with their preferences and whims. He's doing what he's got to do, that's why you may see improvements.
And I hope I don't get misunderstood. I like(d) Riquelme, but his NT-level is gone. I'm deeply, deeply sorry to agree with Maradona in that "if he can't go past -a number, don't remember- players, I can't use him". And though Maradona does not apply this 'rule' to Verón, in the local tournament, Verón has been way more classy (or 'better', if you want) than Román. In all these years, Román did little to nothing good. Boca isn't playing the Liberatores, and Estudiantes, since Verón came back, has won it! Both are old, but I prefer Verón, even if he does not score as much from free kicks as Riquelme did. (and in some way, that's the point... it's all Riquelme was doing in Argentina).
About Verón, I see in him a deeper compromise. You know pretty much everybody here hates him for 2002. I feel he would give his soul to the devil to run five minutes more in order to win a decissive match in a WC. It's a different situation for both of them. Riquelme does not like something and he quits. It's fine, but don't expect a good reception afterwards.
As Johnny says, it's time to move on (I'd like to add Medel to his list of relevant players). As far as the defense is strong I'll be calm. The attack will improve, with or without Messi. Try Aimar, try the ones I don't like such as Banega. Go with those and I will agree. But no more Riquelme. If Verón needs to quit for having, say, Banega, fine then.
I understand your desire for Riquelme, but in my eyes, it won't be the same anymore.
salvio supporter, I would accept Banega/Palermo/Aimar any1 as our playmaker but not veron. I am just sick of this old n slow guy.
Hey Salvio Supporter ! Nice post. We don't agree on everything but an informed post. As for Medel, I completely agree. I was alluding more to offensive help for Roman, though Medel scores every now and then.
great podcast guys and a good point about argenina going defenseive as the many years of beautful have not won a lot for us.
the answer is banega with mash, ban can be very defenseive but can also pass the killer pass(something veron does not seem to be able to do anymore).
if more offencesive minded mid is needed then its aimar.
riq and veron have both had their time wih the nt and its time for us to move on.
neither is better on current form then either aimar,banega, cambassio,pastore and of course mash, thats 5 in form central midfielders thats would do a far better job then veron or riq.
Why not try a diamond formation in the midfield?
------------MASCHERANO-----------
JONAS----------------------DI MARIA
--------------AIMAR----------------
Since Diego refuses to let Messi play on the right side of the mid, I think the diamond would work well for the attack with Messi up front with Milito, Higuian or Tevez.
note for all those who doubt higuain as not a clinical striker he scores every 2.6 shots and is scoreing every 77 mins compeared to rooney 105mins and messi at 103mins:stats from soccernet.com
to win a world cup you must have (the old numbering systym) strong 1,2,5,9
romaro,sam or demi,mash,hig or milito
Hahaha I wouldn't use the word "informed", Johnny. Now that I read it, it looks like a mad rant I had haha I just expect that anonymous doesn't takes it as an aggresive post. It wasn't!
And LM10ARG, Aimar would be my first choice, right now I'd tell you 'Verón out, Aimar in'. By the way, I confess that the Banega 'hype' (not trying to say he's a fiasco in any way) is beginning to grow in me. But even if I don't ever get to like him, I surely prefer a younger team-working player rather than an experienced, old n slow guy. Not a sarcasm.
It's funny that we discuss about old players for their experience. We have players! We're not the french!
I don't know about you, but Gaby Milito's form isn't good enough for any international matches. He's just a bit better sometimes than Marquez, but he's waaaay below Puyol or Pique. Barca only loss was when Milito started this season. I agree w/ Maradona, I think Demi and Samuel are a perfect combo. Samuel and Lucio played amazing against Chelsea in CL. Demi is like Lucio in terms of their intelligence, Samuel is a tough defender, so they are a different character. It's a great combo. I agree with Maradona that Burdisso is our 3rd best central defender and should back up Demi and Samuel. Otamendi or Heinze both can be the 4th back up. So please...no Gaby Milito.
It's no coincidence that our main tactic is/will be 4-2-2-2, which means 2 full backs, 2 DM, 2 attacking midfielders, and 2 forwards. For me, if a team is to succeed, they must have 2 different characters for the couples. Maradona did a great job in 4 areas:
1. DM: Mascherano and Veron are 2 completely different character. Bolatti n Banega should be their back ups, why? Bolatti is very essential because he's the only one other than Mascherano that is a pure defesive minded DM. Banega or Cambiasso is an offensive minded DM. Should Mascherano become unavailable, Bolatti would back him up.
2. AM: Di Maria is a skillful, fast, clever, and a very offensive minded winger. Gutierrez is a smart, strong defensively, hard worker, unorthodox winger. So they are a great combo.
3. F: Messi and Higuain. Maradona tried Messi-Tevez or Messi-Aguero, but they never worked. Yes Messi Higuain are both fast, but they are different. Higuain, for me, is a very rare #9 that we have. We usually have #9 similar to Kempes, Bati, Palermo, or Crespo. Or #9 similar to Balbo, Cavenaghi, Milito, or Figueroa. But Higuain is, for me, similar to none of them. He's like Ronaldo (Brazil) for me. The only difference is that Ronaldo does a lot of step over dribbling while Higuain doesn't. From the first time I saw him playing a friendly againt Guatemala U-23 in which he scored 2 goals, I already knew that he would be our future #9, although at the time, he wasn't even a main striker for Madrid. The guy has scored an incredibly a goal in 77 minutes thus far!!! That's more than a goal/game.
4. DC: Demi and Samuel should be a lot better than the previous duo in the last 3 WC: Ayala-Heinze, Samuel-Pochettino, Ayala-Chamot.
The only duo that we need to revise is the full back. Otamendi and Heinze are too similar. The only positive aspect of them playing together is that they would make us very strong defensively in the center. However, based of my theory, it's better if they are a different character just like Mascherano-Veron, Di Maria-Gutierrez, Messi-Higuain, and Demi-Samuel. If both full backs are good at going forwards like Zanetti and Insua, we'd be vulnerable defensively, but if 2 DC in full backs, they almost offer no help in attack. So it's best Heinze (good defensively and a Maradona fave) and Clemente (fast, great stamina, good at going forwards).
Playing against small and fast teams like Spain or Portugal or Brazil who have CR, Iniesta, Silva, Robinho will be better if we use 2 different kinds of fullbacks, but playing tall and physical European teams must be faced with 2 DC playing fullbacks.
Principee
GK, I see ur point because I actually like the diamond formation as well. I find it easier to set up traingles for one or two touch passing. I'm just trying to set the players where they naturally play.
I liked JONAS where he played against the Germans. I guess it would be a little different for each team we played if I were in charge. But in general that's my squad.
i like somethings diego is doing i dont mind a solid back 4 but we need movement in the midfield so messi can shine as second striker and higuain gets more crosses and threw balls
put janus back replace veron and add pastore but keep tactics the same
janus--dem--sam--henze
pastore--mas--camb--dimaria
-------messi-------------
---------------higuain----------
a mirror image of peckermans 4-4-2
pastore replaces roman
dimaria replaces maxi
janus replaces sorin
iv just put together a peckerman style 4-4-2 just in reverse i.e playmaker right winger left
peckermans side was in reverse of that
janus is the fast attacking wingback type player just like sorin was
Anonymous, great post, I also like ur squad. I just think having messi on the right wing gives him alot more action with the ball. If he's up front and we can't get the ball to him, he can't do anything with it.
Great article on Pipita!
http://soccernet.espn.go.com/feature?id=751007&sec=europe&cc=5901
Great podcast, guys!
Why isn't anyone mentioning CAMBIASSO!!! he is far better than Veron!! our midfiled would look so much stronger with him.
our defence is not good in the full backs area since we haven't got any. in one match, the stupid idea of playing central defenders as full backs will come to bite us.
Otamendi and Heinzi and two of the slowest defenders for Arg so on one-on-ones they will be overtaken easily and they provide zero attacking support.
Our defence was better against Germany but stop saying it is good. For the love of GOD, for the million time, remember France match? we also "seemed" to have a good defence and what happened then? Germany match was just a fluke, nothing more. we had 2 shots on goal and played with no system at all...
Yes i am being Mr. negative again but i trully can see ZERO improvement in the plan-or lack of it.
i like somethings diego is doing i dont mind a solid back 4 but we need movement in the midfield so messi can shine as second striker and higuain gets more crosses and threw balls
put janus back replace veron and add pastore but keep tactics the same
janus--dem--sam--henze
pastore--mas--camb--dimaria
-------messi-------------
---------------higuain----------
a mirror image of peckermans 4-4-2
pastore replaces roman
dimaria replaces maxi
janus replaces sorin
iv just put together a peckerman style 4-4-2 just in reverse i.e playmaker right winger left
peckermans side was in reverse of that
janus is the fast attacking wingback type player just like sorin was
I CLEARLY AM MENTIONING CAMBIASSO
HE IS ARE PERFECT BOX TO BOX CM LATE IN GAMES REPLACE WITH VERON FRESH VERON VS TIRED OPSITION = FEAR OF VERON
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